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I have been known, on occasion, to argue with cranks on the interwebs. There's a lot of them, and many of them push my buttons. Although I think I managed to give up Rand Simberg a few years ago, to be honest, he stopped being entertaining and just became sad.
Mostly though, these are people I don't know, or at least don't know well, that changed at the weekend when I got into an argument with an old co-worker about UKIP. For non-Brits, UKIP is an emerging 'new' force in British politics. In fact, they're essentially the Euro-skeptic wing of the Conservative Party with a bunch of loons and cranks who don't feel at home in the current Conservative Party due to, er, stuff... mostly about dark skinned people and gays.
The former co-worker was explaining how Nigel Farage, leader of UKIP, was going to be the next and a great British Prime Minister, I immediately assumed he was trolling me - but was shocked to find that he wasn't. It got worse. He was 'saddened' that I was so out of touch that I didn't see how over run with foreigners Britain was and how immigration had to stop. He chided me for living in a real country with strong immigration laws which wasn't being ruled from abroad.
It was, frankly, a bit of an eye opener. Firstly, given that he earned a living working on a Finland based account for a Swedish company which used Polish and German engineering, I'd have assumed he was a bit more nuanced about the benefits of trade. Secondly, as the child of an immigrant, yes people, Ireland is a separate country, honest, and being married to one, I take exception to being lectured on immigration policy. It must be noted that Farage of UK has, I believe a French wife.
I did point out to him that not only was US immigration a serious issue here, but that companies like Microsoft were setting up development centers in Canada because they couldn't get visas for their engineering staff anymore. I also mentioned that I think he'd find a certain Clivden Bundy and friends *do* think they're being governed by a foreign power, just one in Washington DC and not Brussels.
All in all, it is very disheartening. It's one thing to see disaffected poor working class people getting riled up by 'them' and 'us' propaganda, it's quite another to see somebody who is firmly middle class, relatively wealthy and who has benefited dramatically from the EU getting in on the act to. Having watched Farage at work, he is very good at distilling complex arguments into a soundbite, safe in the knowledge that there's no single, easy, way to refute what he just said as being the turgid pile of bollocks it invariably is.
He likes to talk about Europeans coming to the UK in vast numbers, even though the numbers appear to be anything other than 'vast', while ignoring the rather large numbers of Brits who've made their homes in Europe. If the UK becomes unfriendly to live in and starts requiring visas, why shouldn't Europe counter with visas for Brits? I certainly would.
He also makes the oft used argument that the UK could have the same trading agreements but be outside of the actual EU like Switzerland or Norway. Firstly, assuming that the EU would even allow that, and reading current complaints about Switzerland, that seems unlikely, that ignores the issue that both Switzerland and Norway actually have to obey most of the rules and regulations that the EU puts in place anyway. Exactly what Farage complains is destroying the fabric of Britain.
Finally, UKIP describes itself as Thaterite and Libertarian. And like many Libertarians they seem to have a really nasty authoritarian streak which always seems to suggest to me that they want personal freedom and responsibility for them and the stuff they believe in but not for anything else. Reading about some of the UKIP supporters and their actual opinions on rape, homosexuality and a raft of other issues that really should be libertarian, I'm left thinking sadly, that in times of economic hardship Europeans, Brits included really do like somebody who can make their problems seem to be down to somebody else.
I really wish that on both sides of the Atlantic, people were more interested in politicians who told you what you needed to hear and not what you want to hear.
Mostly though, these are people I don't know, or at least don't know well, that changed at the weekend when I got into an argument with an old co-worker about UKIP. For non-Brits, UKIP is an emerging 'new' force in British politics. In fact, they're essentially the Euro-skeptic wing of the Conservative Party with a bunch of loons and cranks who don't feel at home in the current Conservative Party due to, er, stuff... mostly about dark skinned people and gays.
The former co-worker was explaining how Nigel Farage, leader of UKIP, was going to be the next and a great British Prime Minister, I immediately assumed he was trolling me - but was shocked to find that he wasn't. It got worse. He was 'saddened' that I was so out of touch that I didn't see how over run with foreigners Britain was and how immigration had to stop. He chided me for living in a real country with strong immigration laws which wasn't being ruled from abroad.
It was, frankly, a bit of an eye opener. Firstly, given that he earned a living working on a Finland based account for a Swedish company which used Polish and German engineering, I'd have assumed he was a bit more nuanced about the benefits of trade. Secondly, as the child of an immigrant, yes people, Ireland is a separate country, honest, and being married to one, I take exception to being lectured on immigration policy. It must be noted that Farage of UK has, I believe a French wife.
I did point out to him that not only was US immigration a serious issue here, but that companies like Microsoft were setting up development centers in Canada because they couldn't get visas for their engineering staff anymore. I also mentioned that I think he'd find a certain Clivden Bundy and friends *do* think they're being governed by a foreign power, just one in Washington DC and not Brussels.
All in all, it is very disheartening. It's one thing to see disaffected poor working class people getting riled up by 'them' and 'us' propaganda, it's quite another to see somebody who is firmly middle class, relatively wealthy and who has benefited dramatically from the EU getting in on the act to. Having watched Farage at work, he is very good at distilling complex arguments into a soundbite, safe in the knowledge that there's no single, easy, way to refute what he just said as being the turgid pile of bollocks it invariably is.
He likes to talk about Europeans coming to the UK in vast numbers, even though the numbers appear to be anything other than 'vast', while ignoring the rather large numbers of Brits who've made their homes in Europe. If the UK becomes unfriendly to live in and starts requiring visas, why shouldn't Europe counter with visas for Brits? I certainly would.
He also makes the oft used argument that the UK could have the same trading agreements but be outside of the actual EU like Switzerland or Norway. Firstly, assuming that the EU would even allow that, and reading current complaints about Switzerland, that seems unlikely, that ignores the issue that both Switzerland and Norway actually have to obey most of the rules and regulations that the EU puts in place anyway. Exactly what Farage complains is destroying the fabric of Britain.
Finally, UKIP describes itself as Thaterite and Libertarian. And like many Libertarians they seem to have a really nasty authoritarian streak which always seems to suggest to me that they want personal freedom and responsibility for them and the stuff they believe in but not for anything else. Reading about some of the UKIP supporters and their actual opinions on rape, homosexuality and a raft of other issues that really should be libertarian, I'm left thinking sadly, that in times of economic hardship Europeans, Brits included really do like somebody who can make their problems seem to be down to somebody else.
I really wish that on both sides of the Atlantic, people were more interested in politicians who told you what you needed to hear and not what you want to hear.
